Curse

Xasew · Oct 17, 2006, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Shadow Refuge was made mediocre for a reason. If it was better, gank Assassins would be just too hard to deal with. Also, the "if you are attacking" isn't exactly that conditional, just get a wand.

Cirian · Oct 17, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

If you want to heal while attacking, a copy of Vigorous Spirit would probably heal more for 5e. There are other self heals... death's charge (not really what you want) and heart of shadow (doesn't give the heal right away...), but ok, Assassin self heals suck pretty bad.

If heart of shadow teleported you away and gave you the heal right now, then it would be a lot better. I think the Shadow Refuge should give you the heal if you're not attacking too, instead of if you are attacking... which seems silly.

pingu666 · Oct 17, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

in PVE, theres often no where safe for you to go :/

Ruricu · Oct 17, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

in PVE, theres often no where safe for you to go :/

in PVE, monks should be able to handle 150% of the needed healing.
in PVE, it's safe behind your team anyway...
but,
in PVE, assassin chains never get finished on a target because they don't heal at all, thus making a warrior or ranger a much better choice.

Assassins just don't work well in pve, sorry.

Flopjack · Oct 17, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

My point is I want a heal that you can actually depend on, the sad fact that if you even use two Orisons it blows away Shadow Refuge, do you see other class heals doing so little at 11?

Healing Signet-122 health every 4 seconds.
Troll Unguent-8(16) regen for ten seconds, total of 160 hp heal.
Blood Renewal-Regen of 5 and a boost of 150 at the end.
Ether Feast-one foe loses 3 energy and you gain 117 health.
Aura of Restoration-healed for 334% of the energy cost each time you cast a spell.
Shadow Refuge-+9 regen, plus a conditional self heal at the end if you are attacking.

It just seems that you are want the skill to be a certain way, when they made it this was for a reason.

Unless two orisons of healing are cast by a Monk with a reasonable amount of Divine Favor, then it is out healed. But Monk's Healing Prayers are best heals by a long shot, which is 1: obvious and 2: the way it should be. Level 11 Orison of Healing heals for what... like 50ish? Shadow refuge is better then that spell for sure when it comes to self heals.

All those other self heals have just as much as a disavantage as Shadow Refuge has. Healing Signet has 2 second of casting, Blood renewal is easy to kill yourself with and Ether Feast requires an enemy and unless you are a Mesmer, more then likely it takes 2 seconds to cast as well. Finally, the percentage looks big on Ele self heal, but it's not what's it's cracked up to be. Assassin's have better self healing then Eles easily.

An Assassin's heals aren't much better or worse than a Warriors. They are certaintly better then an Eles or Mesmers.

NinjaKai · Oct 17, 2006, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

If you want to heal while attacking, a copy of Vigorous Spirit would probably heal more for 5e. There are other self heals... death's charge (not really what you want) and heart of shadow (doesn't give the heal right away...), but ok, Assassin self heals suck pretty bad.

Agreed there are other skills available that make for better self heals than this.

TheBaron82 · Oct 17, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I don't understand why its not while not attacking... i really don't see how you can hide behind shadows (aka Shadow Refuge) when your trying to slash the enemy to ribbons.

I agree, I think it should be while not attacking to gain hp.

Lord Oranos · Oct 18, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flopjack

It just seems that you are want the skill to be a certain way, when they made it this was for a reason.

Unless two orisons of healing are cast by a Monk with a reasonable amount of Divine Favor, then it is out healed. But Monk's Healing Prayers are best heals by a long shot, which is 1: obvious and 2: the way it should be. Level 11 Orison of Healing heals for what... like 50ish? Shadow refuge is better then that spell for sure when it comes to self heals.

All those other self heals have just as much as a disavantage as Shadow Refuge has. Healing Signet has 2 second of casting, Blood renewal is easy to kill yourself with and Ether Feast requires an enemy and unless you are a Mesmer, more then likely it takes 2 seconds to cast as well. Finally, the percentage looks big on Ele self heal, but it's not what's it's cracked up to be. Assassin's have better self healing then Eles easily.

An Assassin's heals aren't much better or worse than a Warriors. They are certaintly better then an Eles or Mesmers.

Ok this may sound very stupid on an assassin but Im just doing the raw math, I dont really do this but orison EVEN used by an assassin can heal more than shadow refuge, maybe not in spike heals, but the overall effect, it costs more but you are healed for more, unpractical though... It just seems to me that they hit decent with the second form of shadow refuge, the one with evasion.

Btw blood renewal at 11 is actually a decent heal, you just have to use it wisely, makes necros pretty tough when it caps at 16 blood magic. Heal sig could be interrupted, but thats why you get behind an obstacle to hide. The mesmers healing is a dual function, I like it actually. And yeah, I know that Ele's still have the weakest healing ingame, only thing it works well with is spamming large energy spells.

I gotta say though, I really am looking forward to seeing what a dervish can do to help an assassin in combat, having earth magic looks weakish at first but it outmatches shadow arts easily, I havnt played with wind prayers yet though.

Shadow Refuge has had 3 seperate forms, to be honest I liked the second choice much more, the first one was overpowered, and this one is underpowered atm. To me the fact that you have to be in combat to get this heal bonus, limits is usefullness, the regen honestly is just alittle lower than what you usually get healed by with orison and some divine favor. Maybe give half of the bonus instead of the full when you arent in combat?

Giga Strike · Oct 18, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Oranos

@Giga Strike, so you think that no one will attack you? I have yet to see ANYONE not need to use shadow refuge, bar monk heals. The Assassin is meant to fire off combos and get out, but the fact is its made them predictable to the point where it cripples them, countering is easy, people know the Assassin is weak in self defense so they go for him/her, knowing he/she cant take the pressure.

im not saying no one will attack you. im just saying that if you stay in long enough for you to die then you need to rework ur build.

a basic "lead, off-hand, dual" attack combo would take about 3 seconds to fire off. in that time i doubt that many ppl would even be able to target you. many builds have you staying in for a couple rounds (lets use the generic falling 'sin as an example). the falling 'sin, which stays in for about 5 seconds would probably get hit a bunch, but not enough to get killed.

so if u cant make a build that takes less than 5 seconds to use then u shouldn't be using an assassin. you would just be an embarrasment and cause the rest of the world to think assassins have to use.

Giga Strike · Oct 18, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

If you want to heal while attacking, a copy of Vigorous Spirit would probably heal more for 5e. There are other self heals... death's charge (not really what you want) and heart of shadow (doesn't give the heal right away...), but ok, Assassin self heals suck pretty bad.

If heart of shadow teleported you away and gave you the heal right now, then it would be a lot better. I think the Shadow Refuge should give you the heal if you're not attacking too, instead of if you are attacking... which seems silly.

you know? i think i heard of a skill that heals 'sins when they attack. not sure whats its called though...*cough*wayofperfection*cough*

Lord Oranos · Oct 19, 2006, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga Strike

im not saying no one will attack you. im just saying that if you stay in long enough for you to die then you need to rework ur build.

a basic "lead, off-hand, dual" attack combo would take about 3 seconds to fire off. in that time i doubt that many ppl would even be able to target you. many builds have you staying in for a couple rounds (lets use the generic falling 'sin as an example). the falling 'sin, which stays in for about 5 seconds would probably get hit a bunch, but not enough to get killed.

so if u cant make a build that takes less than 5 seconds to use then u shouldn't be using an assassin. you would just be an embarrasment and cause the rest of the world to think assassins have to use.

Im not talking about a build, Im talking about one skill, and the fact that WHEN you get out of combat to run around for around 30 seconds waiting for exaustion to wear off(if you are talking about a shock sin), the spell only heals for around 72. And Im sorry for thinking that sins might be able to use something else than a gd generic falling spider build.

And no, Im not one of those assassins staying in combat, hoping for critical defenses or something like that to save my ass, Ive played the shock-falling-tf sin, and a bunch of other builds. The point is when you do take that damage, epecially when you get degen, it takes alot of time to rebound from it. Also the combo time can vary, depending on if you target sees you and tries to kite you off.

And way of perfection heals on criticals, has a high recharge, and is an enchantment. I wouldnt count on it.

qwe4rty · Oct 22, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

My main problem with shadow refuge is that it's a skill with no clear purpose. The bonus suggests it's meant to be an in-combat heal, but the short duration and 1s cast time + aftercast makes it unwieldy for that purpose. The regen suggests it's meant to be an out of combat heal, but it isn't really enough without the bonus.

Even skills I would normally never consider (like way of perfection) suddenly become attractive in comparison to Shadow Refuge. In scrub PvP where no one is going to bother to remove an assassin's enchants (outside of immediately threatening stuff like AoD) WoP's drawbacks become negligible. In organized pvp Shadow Refuge is pointless outside of ganking, because it's basically terrible at mitigating any sort of serious degen or damage pressure, so you might as well devote that slot to something more useful (say a block/evade stance for avoiding physical spikes, or signet of malice for condition removal, or siphon speed for movement control, etc)

It's just one of those skills that people take, not because it's good, but because its the only alternative. Shadow Refuge is the only on-demand assassin heal available. So people find room to squeeze it into their bars, even if it never ends up doing much for them.

This sums it up nicely, to my mind. Lets see, I can cast precombat, but because of duration, get far less healing (as I may be at full when I cast and travel time takes away usefullness). I can cast in combat, but, its cast time means A) i stay in and get hammered, B) enemy gets away. I use after combat, and miss out on the conditional heal (unless I bow/wand someone, in which case, I'm close enough to be bowed/wanded back, and in cast range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flopjack

It just seems that you are want the skill to be a certain way, when they made it this was for a reason.

I'm sorry, but this just has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard. Let me illustrate why.

Update - Thursday September 14
Ether Prodigy: increased damage per Energy to 3.
Balthazar's Aura: decreased duration to 8 seconds
Divine Boon: increased recharge time to 10 seconds, decreased amount healed to 15..60.
Zealot's Fire: increased recharge time to 45 seconds.
Eviscerate: decreased damage to 1..31.
Irresistible Blow: increased recharge time to 6 seconds, decreased damage to 5..20.
Bull's Strike: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.

Update - Thursday July 13
Air of Enchantment: added a minimum 1 Energy cost; increased recharge time to 8 seconds.

Update - Don't remember
Ether Renewal NERF

Smite has to be one of the most heavily nerfed things in the history of guild wars. I mean honestly, balthazar's aura has had major nerfs, zealots fire, air of enchantment, Ether Renewal.

See a trend? Maybe you should go to the updates page at GuildWars.com and just see how many changes they made. How many things have the buffed or nerfed? Just because something is a certain way right now, doesn't mean it will never change.

Killsmith · Oct 31, 2006, 08:02 PM // 20:02

I don't understand this thread. People are complaining because a damage oriented class can't heal itself? All of the attack oriented primaries have downsides to their heals. Healing signet has a fairly long activation time, during which, you have -40 armor. Troll unguent might offer nice regen, but during the 3 seconds it takes to activate, you're a sitting duck and prone to interruption or knockdown, unless you bring an evasion stance.

If you want more healing, you'll need to do it with a secondary. The dervish looks like a good option since they have a 20 second enchantment that gives 3 regen for each enchantment on you at 8 earth prayers. You could even bring vital boon along since you'd already have 8 in earth prayers. But even those skills have a downside, since mystic regeneration takes tons of energy.

Pick Me · Oct 31, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killsmith

I don't understand this thread. People are complaining because a damage oriented class can't heal itself? All of the attack oriented primaries have downsides to their heals. Healing signet has a fairly long activation time, during which, you have -40 armor. Troll unguent might offer nice regen, but during the 3 seconds it takes to activate, you're a sitting duck and prone to interruption or knockdown, unless you bring an evasion stance.

If you want more healing, you'll need to do it with a secondary. The dervish looks like a good option since they have a 20 second enchantment that gives 3 regen for each enchantment on you at 8 earth prayers. You could even bring vital boon along since you'd already have 8 in earth prayers. But even those skills have a downside, since mystic regeneration takes tons of energy.

The whole idea of the Assassin is to get in and get out. While you are in, you do your damage. Why would you need to stay longer than necessary just to heal that extra bit more?

Warriors have stances and shouts to increase their defenses (including Doylak Signet). Rangers stay out of the melee area, so damage isn't as forth coming.

The whole idea is that if you want to heal yourself, you shouldn't really need a secondary to do that. Monks don't, Necromancers don't, Warriors don't, Ritualists don't, Rangers don't, Mesmers don't. Do you think the Assassin should be compared to the Elementalist?

neoflame · Oct 31, 2006, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

The whole idea is that if you want to heal yourself, you shouldn't really need a secondary to do that. Monks don't, Necromancers don't, Warriors don't, Ritualists don't, Rangers don't, Mesmers don't. Do you think the Assassin should be compared to the Elementalist?

You don't need a secondary to heal yourself, because you have Shadow Refuge. What the hell more do you want? It casts twice as fast as Healsig and doesn't cut your armor, it casts three times as fast as Troll, it doesn't blow energy and attributes like Monk/Necro/Rit heals.

Foe · Nov 01, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

heals on a sins bar are like tits on ur dad....wierd,funny and sad

wits keep u alive as sin, if ur wasting time self healing ur letting everyone in your team down

Lord Oranos · Nov 01, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Yeah, sorry, I forgot no one ever attacks sins, and degen magically goes away...my bad. Parasitic Bond, Blood Renewal, etc, etc doesn't blow energy, neither does Signet of Devotion, or Soothing Memories(or insert a myriad of other rit heals.), I don't see what that was about.